We should discuss fathering and fatherhood amongst ourselves more often.
I was talking to one my homies and she was talking about how she no longer finds Dave Chappelle funny because she believes misogyny permeates through far too many of the sketches that involve women. I can’t really offer any sort of rebuttal to that because I haven’t watched the series in years and the only ones that come to mind pretty much exclude women except for the one when he is in the car dancing to some music and the woman with him titty pops out.
Then she started listening the stereotypes women get like they’re difficult, angry, nuts, and so on and so forth. Essentially, men don’t understand women as people. So, I sat on that for a couple a seconds. What I came up with is that it is to be expected. Men’s lives don’t intersect with women until a nigga wants to fuck. And I say nigga because and not because I’m black or to be crass, but put out the crassness of the conversation and the desired relationship with women. As young boys we are never encouraged, and often shunned if we do, to delve into the world that has been constructed as girl/women. You are not supposed to watch shows for girls, listen to music for girls, play with girls’ toys, read books for girls and pretty much anything that is marketed/divisible into boy and girl. None of the material we’re given as boys really even includes girls except in the tomboy role.
And the tomboy role is an interesting function. That is when girls are allowed, there are still hurdles and restricts considering she is still a girl, to interact with boys among boy society. There is always some pushback among the boy fraternity, but she will have interaction with boys on boy level. Far more than the inverse at least. While there are mountains of positive things to be said about girls being tomboys, from a male perspective this is problematic to me on some level because the interaction is only taking place in his territory (for the majority of the time at least).
Now for girls it is interesting to me because straight (OUT OF THE DUNGEONS OF RAP) of the womb they are pretty much forced to interact with the boy world in every facet of their life. Firstly, all things that they consume will pretty much be in lesser quantity than the boys. And even within the little that they get exclusively targeted to them there will pretty much always be substantial male influence/characters permeating throughout the entirety to it. Shit, there are times with stories that take place in an entire female border school/university and with just a single male character he dominates the narrative. So, with parse amount they do receive they still get healthy (err…) doses of boyhood. In addition to that they’re encouraged to play with boys and consume our media alongside us. Women’s lives are intertwined with both masculinity and femininity since they are toddlers. It would seem contradictory to say that men’s lives aren’t, but we have to keep in mind that men only meet women in childhood and adolescence on their ground. No budges.
Now we get to a nigga wants to fuck stage. Fucking clueless as all hell. This may feel like a tangent, but I believe it bares mentioning. Lets sit back and think how many men actually know what a period is. Right? Right? This is one of the most basic things that can happen to women, but it is not understand by men beyond bad stand-up, terrible stereotypes on TV, and signifying that now that particular woman is able to get pregnant. I think that is one of our greatest examples of our profound ignorance of women. A simple biological necessity in order to make sure that the planet continues to have your species is barely understood beyond the most tenuous grasps of the basics. Where was I again? Okay yes, a nigga wants to fuck and we’re clueless. We’ve had zero training or preparation for this. Shit we haven’t even learned that you’re fellow fucking human beings yet! Jesus, we’re fucked. Sort of. Well not sort of, it’s a no. Women kind of just accept our ignorance because of one of our favorite phrases “boys will be boys.”
I know a positive example of a woman that are usually in boys lives in the mother. I would say it’s a good point. I would, but I won’t. Why? Well because mothers are not women to their sons. Mothers to sons barely exist on the same plain as human beings. They are God damn heavenly perfect figures. Which is why men who love their mothers (live, breathe, and die for them) can still give zero fucks about the treatment of other women in the world including how he treats women. I believe that regardless of how much a girl may love her daddy, there will almost certainly be a certain point and time in relationship when she starts seeing his as both a man and father (or even just a men who happens to be her father).
I feel like now I should answer my question prompted in the title. I honestly can’t say when because I think a significant percentage (I am neither optimistic or pessimistic right now so I would say majority or major minority) simply do not. That’s not to say these men secretly hate the women they are married to, have kids with, and stay married with their entire lives. Nope. Still love. That’s all possible. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he recognizes their humanity. It doesn’t mean he has any grasp on the totality of women as people. It’s just, I don’t know. Feels like an extremely basic thing you know?
Then again I’m still working on myself with deconstruction within my mind and my views on women aren’t always awash in completely picture perfect views of women as people. Doesn’t matter whether I fucking loved the Powerpuff Girls growing up or that I had more female friends than male friends in schooling or that most of the characters I emphasize with in film are women or that I love or 15 million other things, they are still there regardless. It’s a long process that shouldn’t be a long process. I’m still ashamed of myself for it.
Bolded for emphasis.
I wanted this back on my dashboard/tumblr. I thought of a name to describe what I’m talking about “From cooties ‘til coochie.” It is our long period when both culturally and interpersonally boys are taught to not socialize with women until they are trying to date them. It starts with not wanting to be around girls because of cooties and it ends when the aim is to get some coochie. There’s this extremely large void where boys aren’t socialized with women. They’re supposed to avoid shows, movies, music, books, and just general activities that cater to and are aimed at girls/women. Even in school with who history focuses on and how the stereotypes about girls are in science and math it is very gendered in terms of content and expectations. It is also very gendered in a great many religious institutions in the US. Additionally with the divide of boy scouts and girl scouts, sports, and childhood groups like that. The only interactions with women that boys generally may receive from women are through a caretaker relationship. It may be moms, aunts, grannies, cousins, teachers, or just family member friends at church or what not. With the exception of caretakers, if you’re only interactions with women are predicated on the idea that they are dumb, icky, and that you should do everything in your power to not want to be anything like a woman it is not surprising there are so many levels of hatred directed towards women and singular expectations towards the few women that are liked.
"The English thinker who affirmed that the masculine sex is sadistic by constitution and that the feminine sex is masochistic has found, as I see it, part of the explanation of the problem—but only if you take away the words “by constitution” and substitute “by force of habit.” In other words, it is true that women have learned to enjoy letting men mistreat them, as it is also true that men, for their part, have learned to enjoy allowing themselves to mistreat women."- Victoria Ocampo
For people in general, regardless of gender or orientation, just because people on the outside perceive them 1 way doesn’t mean they are that way within the relationship. Even if they are that way within the relationship, it doesn’t mean they are being dated BECAUSE they are that way. Lots of “jerks” get dates despite the fact that they are jerks because they have other qualities.
Can we stop referring to men as “being a jerk” if he decides to be upfront and honest to a woman that he doesn’t see her as a girlfriend or wife? That situation can involve hurt feelings. That situation can be awkward. It doesn’t make you a jerk for being honest about that. Obviously, there isn’t a need to go over-the-top and crush someone emotionally when telling them that. Obviously. There isn’t a need to add negative reinforcement to people being honest and forthright.
It may be easier for women to empathize with men if they started referencing more substantial sh*t then the time during lunch in elementary school when the girl you had a crush on, but never spoke to or introduced yourself to didn’t want to sit and eat with you. Additionally, it would go much further if you realized that women also have crushing adolescent romantic experiences and unrequited love. That would do far more to establish some sort of dialogue instead of trying to one up them.
Thought it was interesting the way my friend answered the entitled question.
I think the way you frame the discussion makes all the difference. Men choose and women settle? You could say that men choose and settle for what they can get. Not every woman they want will want them. Many men learn after trial and error to only “choose” what they think they can get. Rejection sucks, so they don’t try for the 9/10. Online claims aside, men settle for the best woman who will accept them. When men are ready to marry, they start looking for a wife.
Women choose who they will give their number to,go out with, sleep with. If men are approaching, women are making weeding out choices. They settle for the best of the bunch. Men they could never get dont even become part of the bunch. So in a sense they are not settling.
There is a lot of ego hype in these types of discussions. It’s usually men pretending they have the upper hand to cover up the pain of the rejection they feel. They project rejection of whole classes of women to make themselves feel better because one or two, or a whole bunch of women shot them down. They write about it and form it in terms of “what men think”. When its really about “I feel worthless, so I’m gonna try to make as many women feel worthless as possible.”.
A lot of women take this at face value and feel rejected. They believe the hype. This leads to more Insecure women. Insecure women are easier for insecure men to deal with. So men keep projecting generalized rejection. But the truth of the matter is women are in charge. The vj is a magnetic force that makes the world go round. Ego hype aside, men need access to it more than women need relationships.
"I don’t think it’s terribly controversial to note that women, from a young age, are required to consider the reality of the opposite gender’s consciousness in a way that men aren’t. This isn’t to say that women don’t often misunderstand, mistreat, and stereotype men, both in literature and in life. But on a basic level, functioning in society requires that women register that men are fully conscious; it is not really possible for a woman to throw up her hands and write men off as eternally unknowable space aliens — and even if she says she has, she cannot really behave as though she has. Every element of her life — from reading books about boys and men to writing papers about the motivations of male characters to being attentive to her own safety to navigating most any institutional or professional or economic sphere — demands an ironclad familiarity with, and belief in, the idea that men really are fully human entities. And no matter how many men come to the same conclusions about women, the structure of society simply does not demand so strenuously that they do so. If you didn’t really deep down believe that women were, in general, exactly as conscious as you, you could probably still get by in life. You could probably still get a book deal. You could probably still get elected to office."
I’m reading these recent submission to sexlovejoy about women recounting when they first learned/started to masturbate. I was half surprised by how young most of the submitters were when they first started consciously masturbating. In comparison to them, I was almost a decade behind the curve. That may be another conversation for another day though. So, I’m reading the stories with great interest and then thinking about a what if there was a male equivalent? I think it would be boring beyond relief. I mean I look at myself masturbating and it’s just a boring stroke. I suppose watching someone cum could be exciting, but that’s just a couple of seconds.
Even broadly speaking outside of masturbation, I can’t think of much interest I’ve taken into my own sexuality as a man. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around why anyone, regardless of if they’re attracted in men or not, would find anything interesting about the male body. It’s just big or small. Ain’t much else in my mind. There are women and men who have great enthusiasm for it. I guess. I don’t know. I’m still taken aback when I hear or women attempt to do something to please me during sex. I remember one woman licking on my nipples and I just starting this bizarre confusing laughter. I was confused why the fuck that even crossed her mind to do. Like, I don’t care about my nipples, neck, stomach, or anything but my dick. What are you doing? If you’d like me to pay more attention just tell me or motion for me to do it.
My dick has pretty much been the only thing that I’ve ever thought of as part of my body that receives pleasure because everything about the male body is just so dull. Or something like those words and feelings. I always thought the beginning, middle, and end of male sexuality was either masturbation or PIV sex (or ass for gay males and some women). Anything beyond that was just working up to sex. I guess it stems from the whole baseball-to-sex analogy where bases equal stages until scoring. I’ve always conceptualized male sexuality as a linear line with a goal in sight versus female sexuality that existed in some infinite matrix that darts and dips and reflects and refracts in 1000s of different ways. I know, or at least acknowledge, that isn’t true for men. I’m still uninterested in exploration or adoration for male sexuality though because it still confuses me. I presume that stems from my belief that the “proper” or most aesthetically pleasing male body only exists within a monolith, a pinnacle, and singular ideal.
You can cum and not orgasm. You can orgasm and not cum.
I believe there in an inverse relationships between how much a man feels he has to spend during the initial dating period with a woman versus how interesting he actually is by himself. The more money a man complains about “having” to spend usually means he isn’t very interesting so he’s covering that up that fact with spending lots of money. Lots obviously being relative. Also, complains is in bold and having is in scare quotes for a reason. This isn’t implicating every man who doesn’t care about how much he spends.
The reasons this is noteworthy for me is threefold. Firstly, it gives me a valid reason to justify being cheap. I get to proclaim myself as interesting. And lastly on a more serious note, I think this a red flag regarding men who believe they are owed something by dating them and may actively participate in abuse culture whether explicitly or implicitly.
Any women who would care to contest or corroborate my theory?
I want to discuss the societal differences between psychosis (colloquially speaking) in men and women. Basically, the point I think I’m going to try to play with is that psychosis or “crazy” men are more likely to have their brand on insanity coddled and reinforced by society while women need to constantly be fixed.
I just finished watching Halfaouine: Boy of the Terraces. I posted the synopsis a couple posts back so just scroll a little on down to read it. The portrayal of going from boy to man is always interesting to me. It’s always extremely drastic in that one day you’re a boy and then after some basically arbitrary event or set of circumstances comes along you are deemed a man. The maturation process is pretty much non-existent outside of those moments where you’re trying to jump from being a boy to a man.
A crucial plot point in the film are the bath houses. They are separated by sex with the children going in with the women. At the beginning of the film the protagonist Noura is seen in the women’s bath house casually observing all the women. Later on in the film he is caught trying to get a peek at “the good bits” of one young woman, but is promptly thrown out before the err money shot to be cheeky and crass. And in this instant, the boy has been branded a threat. Well, this is pretty much when all boys are branded as perverted threats out to harm women. In an instant, he has gone from sweet innocent boy that older women were completely comfortable being naked constantly and openly tell dirty jokes around to some man-child that should be segregated from women.
This is of course he physically matures enough to resemble a man in which case he’ll slowly be allowed to integrate back into women’s lives in some capacity, but with never the same comfort as before. I don’t have any rigorous study or test samples to support this so, so far this is just my assumption. I do feel however that this is a crucial part of the reason of the misunderstandings men have about women’s sexuality as well as developing relationships in general with women. Your sexuality is being treated as a treat. The only exploration of it in is to become a creeper. Not only is it the only form, but it’s supported by other little hornball boys/men and given accolades if you come back with something.
That’s a lot of blind leading the blind going on there. It doesn’t help that during that awkward stage a lot of the men around you deem you to be too young to give you any functional conversations regarding women. So you internalize dumb shit for years.
All of that is still missing something I feel is crucial. A boy becoming a man is being framed around his sexuality in relation to women. Any virtue of his character are pushed to side. Good deeds are pretty irrelevant. Which is kind of ironic because these are latter prized or demanded after years of internalizing and supporting the lack/absence of deeds and virtue. Sexually speaking, you are hustling backwards. If the goal is to develop healthy and well-rounded people then the division is counter productive. As is the heralding of say getting a sneak peek at all of woman in person. The journey has not only been framed as the ending, but it has gone from a marathon to a 40 yard dash.
I think I need to sit on the division longer. If we are each “othering” one another then how the hell are we going to be able to come together if there is an attraction between the two? One side if positioned as deviant and deceiving (which we in turn support because fuck us are we going to do we are barred from learning from the source and the wiser?) and the other side is positioned as ever mysterious and cautious so all that is really interpreted is well the mystery. The only thing you’re getting to delve into as far as the person are the aesthetics and brief temperaments.
Also, yes this is pretty narrow in terms of types of relationships, as in heterosexual. I really have zero comfortable assumptions or experiences with any other type which is why I didn’t attempt to write them. If you have a similar post feel free to have at because I’d love to read any and all other perspectives regarding manhood and relationships.
I was just going to put up very broad character descriptors for character traits and ask people to assign the race to the man that they immediately thought of when reading each single or series of descriptors. I have my own suspicions on what the results will be of course. I wanted to make sure that only women answered though. If I had some money I could just attempt a focus group. I’m curious how women view men within their own ethnicity as well as those who would most likely be outside their community so they would most likely have to rely on media representations and brief interactions with them.